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October 18, 2004


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Thanks for that precis. I was supposed to go to their talk at Birmingham but I was ill on the day :(


pete great stuff - thanks... and thaks for bringing so many people from cliff - much appreciated.

nick johnson

"as flawed as any purpose driven church agenda."

just working through PDL in our church in wirral and finding it really helpful - in fact exceptionnally so - what is your precis of what you do not like about it?
NickJ (from pas opton!)

doug gay

Good work Pete - your corrective on church history is crucial here. And your point about diverse patterns of ministry.
Their ministry sounds more important than their interpretation of it. Maybe the gift to them of this wider conversation will include new questions about how to reflect on their practice.

Alan Hirsch

Hi Pete

Ouch! You know how to counterpunch. You make some good points bro, but can I please clarify what I meant to say, at least a little.
1. I have consistently been read as being 'anti-institutional' and perhaps with some justification re my communication. I don't neccesarily think of myself that way. What I am most curious about is when in times of persecution, when the all the normal 'institutional' referrents of church are removed, how is it that the chhurch seems in some context to grow exponentially?? THAT is what I am interested in. Its not so much about knocking the institutiion, its about trying to find out the latent potencies that seem to lie coiled and often unused, at the heart of the Gospel ecclesia. The potency (DNA?) can, it seems to me, be aobscured by what we mean by insitutions. Does the insitution blind us to something far more powerful and primal? That's what grabs me mate. I'm sorry if it comes out at anti-institution. I rather think of it as pro-grassroots/organic.
2. RE the Fivefold ministries of Eph. I think I remember explicitly saying "at least fivefold'. I am not saying that this is the only way of configuring ministry, but that as far as I can discern, one of the elements of missional DNA is at least fivefold. And is based primarily on that Apostolic environment.

I hope to take you up on that beer sometime. I find the web an inadequate forum for a meaningful dialogue. Lets try meet each other sometime.

Blessings Alan

Alan Hirsch

I have to add one more corrective actually, and this I believe I am being deliberately misquoted in order to make a point. You say "Well, the talks started with the basic premise – Christianity grew in the time before Constantine and in China without any form of leadership – therefore leadership/institutional church causes decline, lack of formal leadership causes growth. Institutions are bad." Pete this is just caricaturing and making a straw man you can knock down. I said again and again that there is defintely a form of leadership present in phenomenal movements of God. Its just not neccesarily the type or mode of leadership that we have become accustomed to. Clearly apostolic leadership is leadership!! It just execises its influence differently through moral and spiritual authority.

If you want to debate the ideas in this forum, then please in the name of integrity, can you please quote me correctly. You might not agree, or even like what I am saying, but at least represent me fairly Pete.

With love

Michael Frost

I'll have to add my two cents worth because I fear you've misrepresented me also. When I talk about an orgasmic life I certainly do encourage us to eat well , laugh loudly and love intensely, BUT... I also say that we ought to give away as much of our time, energy and money in the cause of others, including the poor!! Don't eat shit, watch crap TV and sit around whining about life. Live it loud, wonderfully and generously. Eat good food and share as much food with others as we can. The word 'companion' means 'with bread'. True companionship means sharing bread with others. Throw great parties, give great gifts and always defer to the needs of the poor and the oppressed.

Also, on the matter of dosh, I make it my business not to profit in any way from the wealthy Christians God has directed across my path. I'm like a clearing house for mission and the poor.

You've been too harsh on us, you bugger.


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